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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:24 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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Location: Georgia
THANKS, Wallis! I tried again this morn and it was OK - I was even able to post! Paranoia rules! :) Sorry for the interruption.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:56 am 
No problem. Saw your last post. I gave up around 7 my time this evening. Just got on, and it 8:55 here. (GMT+7). BTW, looks like TWI got on my side with our "favorite" Modern Mythmaker. Oops! He might see this post. Aw, who cares?


  
 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:41 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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Location: Georgia
He who can control the rules of evidence can judge the world. Hence, Science has become omnipotent. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Quote: from MrPP on 6:41 am on Sep. 30, 2005
He who can control the rules of evidence can judge the world. Hence, Science has become omnipotent. :)


Yes, the rules of evidence in science is things that can be verified, tested and validated. Were we to subject things to less-than-scientific scrutiny we would be fabricating lots of unsupported evidences.

Let's take that web page about the pyramid as an example:

Quote:
Quote: from MrPP on 6:57 pm on Sep. 29, 2005
WALLIS: Great link! THANKS! It summarizes dozens of articles and books which I've read. It plainly points out all of the major aspects of the GP which canNOT be explained by the proponents of the Establishment's adamant conclusion that "the Egyptians did it!" Those retards cuddn't find their behinds with half a roll of toilet paper. (See H.B. Exodus for proof!) :)


Referencing: The Great Pyramid, Egypt

This discussion references the supposed "forgery of Vyse" and the misinterpreted "Isis Stele", both of which I've demonstrated here in this thread as having been misrepresented.

The article also points out things like the pelagic sediments and marine shells surrounding the pyrimids, the carbon dating of these, and the evidence of believed marine salts and salt encrustations indicating the pyramid was submerged "half way up its height" along with water marks supposedly indicating a water level some 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River.

The presence of these sediments around the pyramid does not necessitate marine flooding in the area. The dating of these sediments via the shells would hardly be a good way to date the pyramid or the sedimentation.

While this article recognizes that "much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid" it fails to recognize further means of the salt accumulation within the pyramid. This predisposed analysis ignores the fact that the pyramid will go through diurnal heating and cooling causing a 'respiration' of the chambers and air spaces, with this being less apparent in the upper levels of the pyramid which have no or lesser airspace. Over centuries this respiration will draw in both ionized and volatilized elements allowing these to condensate and crystalize on cool surfaces. Furthermore, a level 400 feet above the persent level of the Nile fails to even address the topographic terrain and what would be indicated as far as regional water levels for such a submersion to have ever occured.

While this so called "evidence" may have a scientific foundation, such as in recognizing that the salts have specific chemical content and, perhaps, a marine origin, the evaluation of this evidence itself is hardly demonstrating the scientific method and an objective approach to reaching indicated conclusions.


And yes, MrPP, there may indeed be a 'series of stars" over history that might be used to establish structure alignment, but this argment is obviously not the sole evidence that the Great Pyramid was built in the 4th Dynasty by Khufu. Compare this to the argument put forth by Bauval, Gilbert, Hancock et al which indicate the air shafts point to specific stars (Al Nitak, Alpha Draconis, Orion and Sirius.)and allow the spirits to return to these remote places, thereby dating the pyramid construction time, when no evidence exists that this was in any way a compulsion or of significance for the pyramid's builders ...anywhere.

The article even makes the same arguments advanced by one S. Osborne and the author of the "Nephilim and Pyramid of the Apocalypse" about such things as Lat and Long and being in the "center of the earth landmass", which thread posters elsewhere have shown to be unsupported and even ridiculous claims.

I am not trying to be the 'naysayer', debunker or 'voice of establishment status quo', but really, if you want to argue the pyramids were not built by the egyptians, you've got to present a far more compelling case than thus far detailed, and, it might be added, also address real concrete evidences that the 4th Dynasty egyptians did, in fact construct these enigmatic structures. Sure, there are questions about how the neolithic egyptians could produce the detail work seen when (as one INVICTUS has repeatedly remineded us) they lacked even the wheel and would not likely have use of the lathe. However are not the odds FAR more likley that simpler methodologies for stonework have been "lost" over time (as other skilled craftmanship skills have been lost) rather than some more ancient advanced culture built these structures (perhaps with outside assistance), especially given the evidences at hand?


  
 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:08 am 
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Tripp, I think you gave the answer in your last line. "ancient advanced culture" seems to sum it up for me. Most likely the same culture that gave us Baalbek and other large to impossible mystery structures. It's hard to imagine the sphinx being created in isolation, and it certainly dates back a few years before the 4th Dynasty. Who sculpted the Sphinx? Where is all the evidence for the sphinx builders?

Oh yea, by the way, Hiya MrPP. Do I have to say your name out loud to my family? hahaha. I've been buried by a District wide review (Portland) and I'm a reviewer, and reviews suck and are boring but the feds are looking and etc, so I haven't had much time lately to correct all of youse guys irroneous infromation. :) But I'll try to do better. Did Hans bail again or did they close the coop door?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:29 am 
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If you post too quickly, like twice in 15 minutes, you can set off this boards flood control, like I just did. Hmmmm.

Also, for those of you who have been enjoying overcrowded inboxes, uncheck the middle check box just below the reply window. It might cause a dull uncluttered mail box, but you come here anyway to see what's new, right?

Sorry for being off topic.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:03 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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ARNIK: Welcome back! It's almost impossible for me to keep both Tripp and Hans on track with all their pseudo-scientific rationalizations! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:36 am 

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TRIPP:

You sed, "Yes, the rules of evidence in science is things that can be verified, tested and validated. Were we to subject things to less-than-scientific scrutiny we would be fabricating lots of unsupported evidences." YEA, like all those SCIENTISTS who jumped on the "Cold Fusion" bandwagon, eh??? Where's are our cold fusion-powered electic generating plants, eh?

OK, now to your scientific SPECULATION re the salts INSIDE the GP (offerred with NO evidence - how unscientific of you!):
Do the OTHER two large pyramids ALSO have interior salt deposits to the 400 foot level?
Are these pyramids sitting on a SALT desert, or one of sand?
Is the Nile a SALT-water river or fresh water?
How close is the GP to the nearest ocean/sea source of air-born salt?
The air of Egypt is saturated with IONS of Sodium and Chlorine and they don't react with anything else in the air until they are breathed in by the GP? Why is there no such film of air-deposited salt on the OUTSIDE of the GP from winter night deposits?
The air of Egypt is saturated with MOLECULES of sodium chloride? What is the latent heat of evaporization of sodium chloride, required to convert it from a solid to a vapor? What is the heat SOURCE for vaporizing all the salt? What is the heat source to KEEP it vaporized in air and not "raining out" onto ALL Egyptian structures???

OK, so we ASS-U-ME that the GP breathes in sodium chloride from wherever. Then it deposits out of the air onto the cool, inner surfaces. WHY would there be a LINE at ANY level in the various chambers? ANY AIR-borne material would deposit equally on ALL interior walls, floors, and ceilings!!! So, WHAT produced the LEVEL line???

"Respiration" is pseudo-scientific HOGWARSH!

Not that you aren't already gobsmacked, let me really mess with your mind. And this does NOT come from Sitchin! When built, the "NORTH shaft" was NOT aimed at ANY north polar star. It was aimed at the SOUTHERN heavens so that ET could call home!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:45 am 

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:03 am 

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<blockquote><hr>Quote: from MrPP on 6:36 am on Oct. 1, 2005
TRIPP:

You sed, "Yes, the rules of evidence in science is things that can be verified, tested and validated. Were we to subject things to less-than-scientific scrutiny we would be fabricating lots of unsupported evidences." YEA, like all those SCIENTISTS who jumped on the "Cold Fusion" bandwagon, eh??? Where's are our cold fusion-powered electic generating plants, eh?

<hr></blockquote>

Good example, MrPP....... for my case. The cold fusion claims were tested .... and not validated. Science in process.


<blockquote><hr>Quote: from MrPP on 6:36 am on Oct. 1, 2005

OK, now to your scientific SPECULATION re the salts INSIDE the GP (offerred with NO evidence - how unscientific of you!):
Do the OTHER two large pyramids ALSO have interior salt deposits to the 400 foot level?
Are these pyramids sitting on a SALT desert, or one of sand?<hr></blockquote>

I am unclear on your point here: Are you trying to assert that the two smaller pyramids in Giza were made in the 4th Dynasty and NOT the GP? Won't this conflict with them being laid out to represent the stars of Orion's belt and minimize the claim of the GP's shafts pointing to those stars?

The other pyramids are different structures with different inclinations and differing internal structure and therefore they have varied thermoclinal properties.

We already know by that article's own indication that "most" of the salts found in the GP were from exudation of the salts from the blocks themselves. Therefore lesser amounts of salts are coming from somewhere else. My guess is all of the pyramids on the Giza plateau have salts on their blocks internally, but this could be wrong and could be wrong for a variety of reasons. These reasons and variations are relevant to any claims, including one that the GP was flooded up half its height.


<blockquote><hr>Quote: from MrPP on 6:36 am on Oct. 1, 2005

Is the Nile a SALT-water river or fresh water?
How close is the GP to the nearest ocean/sea source of air-born salt?
The air of Egypt is saturated with IONS of Sodium and Chlorine and they don't react with anything else in the air until they are breathed in by the GP? Why is there no such film of air-deposited salt on the OUTSIDE of the GP from winter night deposits?
The air of Egypt is saturated with MOLECULES of sodium chloride? What is the latent heat of evaporization of sodium chloride, required to convert it from a solid to a vapor? What is the heat SOURCE for vaporizing all the salt? What is the heat source to KEEP it vaporized in air and not "raining out" onto ALL Egyptian structures???<hr></blockquote>

My understanding from readings is that exidence shows that the body of the Nile has been both salt and fresh in the past.

Salt ions and other minerals do react with other things in the air but are and on their cool surfaces but other structures, including the outside of the pyramids themselves, are subjected to wind erosion and resolution of the salts in precipitation whereas the inside of the pyramids are not.

Sodim chloride, potassium chlorida and other salts are not turned from solid to a liquid in vaporization. They are ionized and vaporized with the water, the presence of these ions in the water changing the vapor pressure.

The diurnal thermo dynamic process is seen regularly around areas and particularly in shore areas where there are exposed sediments with low vegetation and ample sunlight. (The energy for the vaporization comes from the sunlight.). Water absorbs approximately 4 times the heat of land, therefore during a day the temperature of land will rise quicker than that of water. This is why you go to the beach and typically find breezes blowing on shore during the day. At night however the water maintains more of the heat than the land and the land cools, perticularly in those cold desert nights, and the wind will blow off shore from the land to the warmer ocean. This is only one aspect of thermodynamics (obviously) and obviously these can be overridden by prevailing winds and storms, etc; again we are looking at consistant processes over centuries.


<blockquote><hr>Quote: from MrPP on 6:36 am on Oct. 1, 2005

OK, so we ASS-U-ME that the GP breathes in sodium chloride from wherever. Then it deposits out of the air onto the cool, inner surfaces. WHY would there be a LINE at ANY level in the various chambers? ANY AIR-borne material would deposit equally on ALL interior walls, floors, and ceilings!!! So, WHAT produced the LEVEL line???

"Respiration" is pseudo-scientific HOGWARSH!
<hr></blockquote>

FOr starters, these claimants, to my knowleged, have introduced NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that there is a consistant "LEVEL line" throgout the GP that would indicate its immersion. We have only vague claims and statements and no documentation and nothing in these vague claims and statements about any consistant level being recognized throughout and never undermined by other indications.

Airborne salts from this "respiration" would not necessarily deposit evenly across all surfaces, floors, ceeilings and walls. Preferential deposition would depend on differences of surface temp of these available surfaces with these differentials often being of a small scale and varying depending on size of rock mass and thermal conductivity with external rock subject to solar radiation. We are not talking about extreme variations here but rather small variations that matter over over 100's of centuries. Also more heavily saturated air would tend to be denser and ride lower in any void or chamber in the pyramid. As the air cooled the air would also become more dense and tend to deposit any condensated salts lower within any void or chamber. The deposition would generally be miniscule if ever of such a level to be recognizable but, again, over 100's of 1,000's of years this could result in a significant accumulation.... yet still less than the exudation from the rocks themselves (as recognized by the article).



(Edited by Tripp at 8:18 am on Oct. 1, 2005)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:22 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:45 pm
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Howdy boys

My first post seems to have gone West.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:01 pm 

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A hypothesis.

Supposing that a civilization must go underground for a period of two hundred or three hundred years.

According to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, much of the technology would be shelved to concentrate on the basic needs of survival. There is a chance--possibly a good one--that much of the technological knowledge gained before the mass exodus underground to either have been lost or destroyed.

Once mankind reemerged from the ground, then some remnants of the previous civilization would be resurrected, but not to the degree that it once was.

We have only to look at the so-called Dark Ages to see what "ignorance" did to the technological and scientific knowledge gained up to that period of time.

Thus, I guess I'm making a case that the technology to build the GP (Tripp: I finally figured out what GP means!) and other structures could have been around but now "lost." Then, too, we haven't found all of the ancient ruins supposedly buried in the far west of Egypt and Libya.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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TRIPP: Hogwarsh! The first two, INDEPENDENT published attempts after the original, announced success at cold fusion VALIDATED the findings! All THREE WERE WRONG!!! It certainly took the "scientific method" a month or two to work against the race for FAME!!!

All of your SWAGS re "respiration" have some basis in valid science. BUT, Where's the EVIDENCE??? Where's the chemical analyses of of all that "salt" - QUALitative AND QUANtitative??? Where are the AIR analyses showing ion and molecular content TODAY??? ALL of the sufaces in chambers and shafts are FAR from the heated, exterior surfaces. So, absent high air flows, these would be cool surfaces. But, absent significant air flows, no salt can get INTO the chambers to deposit there! And you're saying that the GP actually "inhales" AND "exhales" so that more salt can come in with the next "breath"??? AND, could you explain "exudation" to me. A HARD stone, over time, with NO "driving forces" PREFERENTIALLY "exudes" some portion of it's mineral content??? Stalactites and stalagmites take ratios of thousands or millions of water/limestone to form, while a harder stone simply sits there - DRY - and "exudes" one or more of it's ingredients??? Wouldn't it lose it's crystalline structure and COLLAPSE???

ALSO, would you go over your last several posts and assign probabilities of being true IN THE GP to each of your speculative, scientific wild-a**ed guesses so that others might get a feel for (or calculate) the probability of ALL of your SWAGs being true and that you are RIGHT??? (I DO hope that others have electronic calculators or software that will carry out to at least nine points after the decimal in looking for a significant number.)

And, TRIPP, I find it IRONICALLY hilarious and hilariously IRONIC that YOU are forced to beg for TIME for all the sodium chloride soldiers to form ranks, march into the GP, and gratiously deposit themselves upon the cool inner surfaces. NO SWEAT! Your "opponents" are willing to grant you THOUSANDS of ADDITIONAL years for your little salt puppets to get INTO the GP!!! But then, every salt dummy has to take an oath to NOT climb above a certain elevation once inside!!! Oh, Gawd, it THIS "better thing through chemistry"!!! Oh, no! I've gotta quit - I'm suffering a severe case of Establishment humor side-splitting!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:04 pm 

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WALLIS: Nice theory, but there were NO centuries of "BC Dark Ages" for anybody - alien or human - to forget ANYthing. It's all a result of the omnipotent Egyptologists repeatedly counting the same sequences of several "Egyptian pharoah successions" - to the extent that they've ADDED 500-800 NON-existent years to the BC calendar!

Try "mass amnesia" - and the apparent fact that the departees took all of their "M.E."s with them - leaving us retarded humans in the technological dark, and relying on SWAGs and RWAGs to answer all our "Why?"s.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:23 am 
Aw, but MrPP, are you forgetting the castrophes 12,000 years ago, 9,000 years ago, and just recently 6,000 years ago?

Who burned Alexandria?

Who brought medicine back into the Western world? Those "infidel" Moslems.

Who taught the "backward" Westerners that bathing and boiling water were healthy? Who taught them how to cure meat and learn pest control? The Chinese.

We as a human race have had many "dark ages" where science and technology have not just been repressed but downright destroyed. And you're gonna love this: religion has played a great part in the "dumbification" of mankind for years.

We've got people and groups who are trying their darndest to put us back in a dark age. The latest laff-gaff is that goof-ball evangelist that wants all people who believe in UFOs (i.e., extraterrestrials) to be excommunicated as devil worshippers. Stoning being illegal in the U.S., that is about as punitive he can get.


  
 
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