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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:16 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:52 am
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problem is, i havent seen any convincing arguments for the A.E.s building the GP either. they sure built a number of other crude pyramids and mastabas, but i dont see where exactly does that compare to the sofistication and technological achievement present in the GP. just a number of examples that come to mind: how did they leveled such a large terrain to such millimetric figures comparable to any modern day land survey and construction work? the place where the GP and its companions stand today was once a mountainous rock outcrop which had to be swept away. how did they move so many stones across the desert? it sure had to be a very unexpensive, quick and efficiet method since they opted for stones with an average weight of 2.5 to 3 tons, though i believe those figures go up to 10 tons and more in some cases. how did they place with such precision at a height of 30 to 50 meters above ground the granite stones of the King's Chamber?
some claim that ramps were used. where are their remains, how many tons of material would be needed to buid a large enough ramp to maintain a feasible angle of enclination to carry the stones by man and beast power, such a huge thing must have left some evidence of its presence? how long would it take just to build the ramp?
how did manage to assemble a more than 2 million stone mountain and still maintain such perfect proportions and a millimetric positioned apex?
why does no egyptian king claim the authorship of the GP, in that sense why are there no records whatsoever of its construction? oddly enough we know who suposedly built the first pyramid but we dont know who built the most magnificent of them all.
egyptian "religious" motives and their fascination for pyramids have the traits of a cargo cult, the Great Pyramid seems to be one of its main foundations.
im not convinced by any explanation for the inner workings of the GP, no feature seems to particularly serve any "religious" purpose and still there are staggering and extremely difficult ammounts of work employed in them.
engineers and stone cutters recognize the problems involved in the construction of the GP and, even if more qualified than anyone else, have no answers. yet egyptologists stick to their mantra albeit having no evidence besides a limited number of obscure liturgic inscriptions in an obscure area of the pyramid. humm, well, whatever... just damn everyone who questions mainstream authority after all there are those who believe that arqueology is a science.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:16 am 
<b>Pyramid Construction: New Evidence At Giza</b>

<a href="http://www.guardians.net/hawass/pbuildrs.htm" target="_blank">Ancient ramp leading to the Great Pyramid discovered, but only of maximal height approximately 100 feet (30 m). Pyramid's original height was 481 feet. Also, the heaviest stone blocks were discovered to have holes bored on opposite sides, indicating the use of cranes to raise and precisely position them. </a>


  
 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:02 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:52 am
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Quote:
Quote: from Tripp on 7:16 am on Sep. 28, 2005
<b>Pyramid Construction: New Evidence At Giza</b>

<a href="http://www.guardians.net/hawass/pbuildrs.htm" target="_blank">Ancient ramp leading to the Great Pyramid discovered, but only of maximal height approximately 100 feet (30 m). Pyramid's original height was 481 feet. Also, the heaviest stone blocks were discovered to have holes bored on opposite sides, indicating the use of cranes to raise and precisely position them. </a>


"The slope would rise with each turn from a reasonable 65 degrees, for the first section, to as much as 18 degrees for the last climb to the apex. "

65 degrees is not a reasonable slope angle when the objective is carrying a multiton ston, heck, even a 18 degree inclination would be a tough job when pulling such a stone upward.

"The settlement described above, a great part of it located to the East of the tombs and the institution area, suggests that this site could be the workmen's camp."

yes, such a settlement could sugest housing for a number of workmen (i believe 5000). question is, did they actualy work on the Great Pyramid? egyptians left records about a number of subjects, where are those who speak of their work on this particular pyramid?

sorry Tripp, i still find the evidence flimsical, besides that, there are a number of questions that remain unanswered.

(Edited by outcast at 8:03 am on Sep. 28, 2005)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:34 am
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NOVA: <b>"Who built the pyramids?"</b>

<blockquote><hr>"<i>We are lucky because we found this whole evidence of the workmen who built the pyramids and we found the artisans and Mark found the bakery and we found this settlement of the camp, and all the evidence, the hieroglyphical inscriptions of the overseer of the site of the Pyramid, the overseer of the west side of the Pyramid, the craftsman we found, the man who makes the statue of the overseer of the craftsman, the inspector of building tombs, director of building tombs -- I'm telling you all the titles. We found 25 unique new titles connected with these people. Then who built the pyramids? It was the Egyptians who built the pyramids. The Great Pyramid is dated with all the evidence, I'm telling you now to 4,600 years, the reign of Khufu. The Great Pyramid of Khufu is one of 104 pyramids in Egypt with superstructure. And there are 54 pyramids with substructure. There is support (that) the builders of the pyramids were Egyptians. They are not the Jews as has been said, they are not people from a lost civilization. They are not out of space. They are Egyptian and their skeletons are here, and were examined by scholars, doctors and the race of all the people we found are completely supporting that they are Egyptians."</i>
HAWASS

<ul><li>. All around the Great Pyramid are the tombs of Khufu's court officials and family.</li>
<li>By means of astronomical retrocalculations – employing the phenomenon known as precession – the original alignment of the three Giza pyramids to the circumpolar stars has been accurately dated to the twenty-fifth century BC – the time when the 4th Dynasty pharaohs ruled over the Nile valley. These circumpolar stars are those which would be used to establish alignments during sunrise and sunset to stake out the orientation of the pyramid and establish alignment; no compass was needed nor any instrumentation to achieve finite alignment.</li></ul>

<hr></blockquote>

<b><font size=+1>GP Built Before Khufu
& only Adopted By Khufu</font></b>

In "Stairway to Heaven", Sitchin indicates that Khufu only built a 30 m tall pyramid at the base of the Great Pyramid and only adopted the Great Pyramid as his own. For reference, Sitchin references a stele found in an old temple besides the Great Pyramid which, according to Sitchin, states that the Great Pyramid and the Sphinx already stood there when Khufu came to Giza.

What Sitchin wrote about this Isis stele:<blockquote>'Live the Horus: Mezer, King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Khufu, who is given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx
According to the inscription on the stele [...] the Great Pyramid already existed when Chufu appeared on the scene. [...]
Chufu tells then, that he built "besides the temple" a pyramid for princess Henutsen. [...] Everything in this inscription supports known facts; but Chufus only announcement of building a pyramid means the small pyramid for Henutsen. The Great Pyramid was already there, writes Chufu, and the Sphinx (which leads to the conclusion, hat the other two large pyramids had also been there). /blockquote>

This stele was classified as "later fake" by archaeologists, or something written after the fact describing what was present. However before this evaluation, James Henry Breasted in 1806 (some 80 years before Sitchin's book) had put this stele into his section of protocols from the 4th dynasty and therefore seems to believe that its genuine.

The original translation by Breasted in 1806 is the following:
<blockquote>Live the Horus: Mezer, King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Khufu, who is given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx of [Harmakhis] on the north-west of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rosta. He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess, and he built a pyramid for the king's-daughter Henutsen beside this temple.</blockquote>

In contradiction with what Sitchin indicated, here we see clearly two pyramids represented, one for Khufu and one for hsi daughter. Nowhere is there any evidence in this stele that the Great Pyramid already stood.

Furthermore, what Sitchin fails to indicate from Breasted's work is that Breasted indicated that there are signs on the stele which show that it is from a much later time than the pyramids, thereby only describing what then stood at a later time. Words like "House of Isis" or "Lord of Rosta" were first used after Dyn. 20, 1500 years after the time of the pyramids. In fact the first mention of Isis only came about in the Egyptian late period. On the inset inner part of the stele we find gods mentioned which didn't even exist in the time of the pyramids. They came from the conquerors of the second and third intermediate period and were then included into the Egyptian pantheon. It is therefore impossible that the stele was made before that time.

More recently egyptologist Eva Lang indicates that the description on the stele documents the works of two pharoahs and not just one:

<blockquote>"On the right of the Chufu title we can see another text section, but this is not about Chufu but about Amasis (about 570 BCE, FD):
'He made for his mother Isis, the godly mother, and for Hathor, mistress of the western mountains, an inspection for this stele. He reintroduced new offerings for her and he built for her a temple in stone by repeating what he had found. The "Chosen of the Gods" (gold horus name of Amasis) sits on his throne.'
The rest of the text describes how Amasis ordered several restorations, so the restoration and repainting of the Sphinx. Due to destruction of the text there are gaps, but the activities described are definitively ordered by Amasis and not by Chufu. They are no evidence that Chufu had found the Sphinx. By the way: The attribution of the temple to Isis comes from a confusion with the name of the pyramid owner, Henutsen, since "henut" means "mistress"." </blockquote>

As I've said, Sitchin's scholarship is not in evidence in his work regarding the Great Pyramid. Seriously if one is to sincerely focus on the questions regarding the Great Pyramid, they cannot simply discard the research of egyptologists in toto and then start anew in writing whatever suits their fancy in regard to these inspiring structures.

Sure, no comparable construction was ever again made by these egyptians. However to use this as indication that the GP was not made by them is comparable to saying that the United States never made it to the moon since we've not been able to return there in the past 30 years.


(Edited by Tripp at 9:49 am on Sep. 28, 2005)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:17 pm 

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Quote:
Quote: from Tripp on 9:43 am on Sep. 28, 2005

As I've said, Sitchin's scholarship is not in evidence in his work regarding the Great Pyramid. Seriously if one is to sincerely focus on the questions regarding the Great Pyramid, they cannot simply discard the research of egyptologists in toto and then start anew in writing whatever suits their fancy in regard to these inspiring structures.


no, one should not disregard the archeologists work, however, one should not also disregard what engineers and stone cutters have to say regarding the work presented around the Giza complex either. thats my main problem with the claim that the rudimentary stone age mathematical and technical expertise of the 4th dinasty egyptians could bring fourth such a complex structure which compared to the other pyramids before and after seems to have appeared from nowhere.
i will not disregard that archeologists supose that it is possible to produce an artifact like the King's Chamber red granite box with copper and stone tools, an object that would required state of the art technology to produce nowadays. the whole GP complex seems over produced and over elaborated to the point of high degrees of precision that for such a primitive people it just doesnt seem right.

Christopher Dunn explains these issues better than i can: http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:19 pm 

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"Sure, no comparable construction was ever again made by these egyptians. However to use this as indication that the GP was not made by them is comparable to saying that the United States never made it to the moon since we've not been able to return there in the past 30 years. "

i will not claim that the egyptians did not build the GP but i will remain skeptical that stone age egyptians could produce such work.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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Why do I keep receiving TWO e-mail notifications for EACH post by you guys???

TRIPP: The NASA/moon example was cute, even if self-defeating. Why would the Egyptian people - even slaves - hang in there for so many decades/centuries to build the GP??? Also, PRIOR to the Establishment date for the GP, there were NO Egyptian projects of anything approaching the "civil engineering", architectual, and stone masonry complexities of the GP!!! Nothing of such multiple-complexity AFTERward can be blamed upon societal and knowledge degenerations, but what OTHER evidence is there of that other than the later, Ppoor imitations of the GP??? The GP was then a "giant leap for Mankind", followed by a giant fall for Mankind???

AND, while we are capable of BACK-calculating "precession dates", WHERE did the Egyptians record the "polar star" IDENTITIES and "Pharoah dates" that permit such retro-calculations to reinforce an established Establishment opinion???


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:30 pm 
You receive only two???? How come I'm so lucky as to receive three or four???? Makes my inbox look like somebodies really love me!!!!


  
 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:39 pm 
I suppose you all have visited this site: http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/egypt/great_pyramid.html


  
 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:57 pm 
You guys get the number of emails after a post in proportion to the number of times you checked the "want email notification of replies" box when posting. Me, I get 3 seperate emails each time one of you post here... which tends to overflow my email box every time MrPP hits his trademark consecutive series of posts. :)

As far as I can tell, you cannot remove the email requests from a thread even by editing the posts you had the request in.


Quote:
Quote: from MrPP on 2:44 pm on Sep. 28, 2005

TRIPP: The NASA/moon example was cute, even if self-defeating. Why would the Egyptian people - even slaves - hang in there for so many decades/centuries to build the GP??? Also, PRIOR to the Establishment date for the GP, there were NO Egyptian projects of anything approaching the "civil engineering", architectual, and stone masonry complexities of the GP!!! Nothing of such multiple-complexity AFTERward can be blamed upon societal and knowledge degenerations, but what OTHER evidence is there of that other than the later, Ppoor imitations of the GP??? The GP was then a "giant leap for Mankind", followed by a giant fall for Mankind???


CENTURIES to build the GP? oh please.

The NASA example is apropo. No one has approached the United State's accomplishment of landing on the moon, not even Russia.. and why in all this time hasn't Russia landed on the moon? What's up with that? You'd think they were complicit with the U.S. in faking the moon landing or something. The reason the Great Pyramid is one of the seven ancient wonders of the world is that it is an unparalleled accomplishment. Arguing the egyptians could not hve done it because it was never done before or again since is sort of silly. ANd for that matter the egyptians most certainly did have projects approaching the GP in the form of mestabas, temples and crypts and those that mimiced it afterward.

Quote:
Quote: from MrPP on 2:44 pm on Sep. 28, 2005

AND, while we are capable of BACK-calculating "precession dates", WHERE did the Egyptians record the "polar star" IDENTITIES and "Pharoah dates" that permit such retro-calculations to reinforce an established Establishment opinion???


Uhhh, where did they record the polar star? They recorded these things IN the Great Pyramid and other structures using the lowest features in the stellar horizons that could result in consistant, directions for aligning buildings without having the benefit of a modern sorveyor's tools.


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:13 am 
Three??? I got five!!! just from Tripp's latest post!!!!

I think that the argument is along the lines that if modern man cannot duplicate the pyramid, then the ancient Egyptians--who are thought to have primate tools--could not have done it.

What fills in the blank? Supermen????


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:44 pm 
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If Gudea of Sumeria could build a pyramid under the close instruction of Ninurta (Ningirsu), son of Enlil, with the help of (Thoth?) [an Egyptian god] could not the GP have been built with the same assistance? The gods gave detailed instructions for the alignment and materials for the construction of the pyramids. even to the ceremonies of the laying of the cornerstone. With the proper guidance from an advanced technological mind it seems feasible that the pyramids could be built with existing materials and minimal assistance from outside sources.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:57 pm 

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WALLIS: Great link! THANKS! It summarizes dozens of articles and books which I've read. It plainly points out all of the major aspects of the GP which canNOT be explained by the proponents of the Establishment's adamant conclusion that "the Egyptians did it!" Those retards cuddn't find their behinds with half a roll of toilet paper. (See H.B. Exodus for proof!) :)

TRIPP: OVer the time period involved, they would have had to use a SPECIFIC SERIES of Polar Stars, NOT just one! HOW did the Egyptians DIFFERENTIATE between A Polar Star and those which PREceeded and SUCceeded it??? They DID'NT - it's all GUESSING and BACKcalulations by MODERN astronomers - with ASSUMPTIONS - attempting to SUPPORT the Establisment position on the GP origins. PHOOEY!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:16 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:35 pm
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PARANOID? Who, Me??? At 10:05P EDT, I was repeatedly unable to access that OTHER site we all once favored! Is the server down or overloaded, or was I banned for my only post this date on a thread which had been moved by the moderators from Religious Discussions to the SITCHIN forum! Wallis, would you inform me of YOUR ability to access, w/date a time and Delta T to U.S. EDT??? (You'd NEVER guess who had objected to all of my posts on RD! :) )


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:12 am 
MrPP, I just tried. It is 1215 PI time, which is 12 hours ahead of EDT. It is offline, as far I can tell.


  
 
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