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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:09 am 

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I've read the complete 12th Planet series, but one thing that always comes back into my mind is the description of the pyramids, particularly the "interesting" condition they were found in. Namely the lack of anything in there, particulary the niche in the "queens" chamber, the holes up the grand gallery, and the "broken" doors in the ante chamber.

I have read many books on the pyramids, and for the educated, it is fairly easy to separate the foolish tales of the main ones being burial tombs and place them well aside. Even Zawi Hawass admitted as much in 2003 - a surprising departure from his usual line, so i sometimes wonder if it was a slip up on his behalf. However, what is lacking in the most part is a satisfying replacement theory, besides that of them being astronomical markers.

This brings me to the description in The Wars Of Gods And Men. It is the most complete and convincing i have come across in describing the construction, use and the state they were found in in modern times, especially the well shaft, and the reasons to why the pyramid was found so internally bare.

I have become a person that resists holding any one world view as absolute, prefering to live with a non-commital world view, meaning ultimately that one of many theories could be in part, or total truth when discussing human history up to this point. Although i keep the smallest corner of possibility available for the reality that would fit with common accepted theory, it fits far less with what we see in the world than Sitchins interpretation of ancient history that he has drawn from ancient "myths".

Sitchins work attracts me greatly, as almost all my world views contain the rationalisation that higher (or different) technology was around thousands of years in the past, most appreciable today by the megalithic building types all around the world (including the ones still covered by sand or forest!) - being the most hardy of examples for us to see that would have possibly been subject to a worldwide catastrophe (thanks Zecharia!). Its a wonderful aspect to Sitchin's work that not only does he get one thing so mind numbingly elaborate (the pyramids), but all facets of human history have a place in his books, compared with lesser writers who seem to pick on one thing and attempt to explain it with thier own theories without looking at the context.

In the context of Sitchins books, I still marvel often that i have NEVER read a more eloquent description of the state of the Pyramids as we found them. Its just a shame there isnt a more concise version of the 12th Planet series than my less historically critical friends could get into without having to invest in the time for the whole lot.

After all, it is it not from but one crack that a whole dam can burst?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:50 am 
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i am reminded of an episode of "Star Trek Voyager" in which Chakoaty met an alien race which influenced his ancestors' spiritual beliefs. It demonstrates how a practiced belief can keep alive memories of man's inherent abilities without his conscious knowledge. This is evident by the influence of the pyramids on the thinking of man and the consequential wars that have ensued to possess what is referred to as the Holy Land.
These objects and areas are intrinsic in the learning of truth of our past. So much knowledge has been destroyed, lost, or stolen that truth is subject to interpretation. i tend to see the common thread that runs through the scientific and spiritual veins of the monuments and relics of earth. It is this knowledge, which can be found hidden in every religous text, that has caused wars between the gods and wars between men. The knowledge that has not been made clearly known because of the man's greed is the knowledge that is referred to as the mysteries. These mysteries are the secrets that gave men power (physical and spiritual) over the uneducated masses. {The Sages}
i would recommend reading "Her Bak: Chick Pea" & "Her Bak: Egyptian Initiate" to gain a better understanding of how the existence of mankind follows a specific order that can be discovered through understanding of our genetic make-up. Even the concept of genetic mutation is covered in the chapters concerning Hathesput and Akhenaton. This gives a brighter light to understanding the true intent of creation/man's purpose. It is our duty to seek our proper place in the scheme of creation by understanding ourselves through meditation and reflection on what was, is, and will be. Without the interference of man's influence on the recorded past. We have to be cautious of lies that change the way the past is viewed, like the Forrest Gump movie that have people believing that those events were factual. This is how certain others keep mankind lost to truth. Seek truth without the opinions.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:08 pm 
I am more one to believe that there is much more evidence needed to support the claim that someone other than ancient Egyptians built the pyramids. I do not see any reason to believe that these Egyptians did not build the pyramids themselves.

As far as providing an argument for this, Archaeologist David Rohl, who has been likened to a modern day "Indiana Jones" is much more conversant on these details than I am:

<blockquote><hr>Published in The Express on Thursday, June 29, 2000

<font color=gold size=+2>Who Built The Pyramids?</font>

The pyramids of Giza are the ultimate icon of our glorious past. They have been examined, prodded and pricked by treasure hunters, explorers and archaeologists for centuries – scavengers squabbling over the most famous decaying corpses of Egyptian civilisation. Yet it has only been in recent years that Egyptologists have begun to understand how these giant artificial mountains were made and who built them.

It may seem pretty obvious to you that the pyramids of Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure were built as the final resting places of these 4th Dynasty pharaohs – but go out into the high street and ask a random selection of people who built the pyramids and you'll be surprised at the answers you get. Over the last decade the public imagination has been captured by writers of the 'Alternative Egypt' school who have proposed all kinds of imaginative scenarios. Suggested pyramid builders range from aliens to Atlanteans but, when it comes down to it, there is no real evidence to support such fantastic ideas. No .... the pyramids were not the work of extra-terrestrials, nor were they built by refugees from a long-lost Atlantic culture in 10,500 BC. And you can be fairly confident that the Guauld master-race from the Star Gate film and TV series, with their pyramid spaceships, really are the product of the fiction writers. At the end of the day the archaeological evidence continues to provide the simple reality. The pyramids of Egypt – believe it or not – were built by the Egyptians.

So, what archaeological evidence has come to light to confirm the obvious? Well, first we have the quarry marks found inside the relieving chambers located over the 'King's Chamber' in the Great Pyramid. These inscriptions, painted in red ink, clearly contain the cartouche (name-ring) of Khufu, the traditional builder of the last of the surviving Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. The scribblings were made by the stone-cutters who quarried the blocks before they were dragged into position on the pyramid site. All around the Great Pyramid are the tombs of Khufu's court officials and family. By means of astronomical retrocalculations – employing the phenomenon known as precession – the original alignment of the three Giza pyramids to the circumpolar stars has been accurately dated to the twenty-fifth century BC – the time when the 4th Dynasty pharaohs ruled over the Nile valley. All this has been revealed during the last two hundred years of archaeological research. Now, however, the story of the workforce who laboured over the construction of these mighty monuments is also beginning to unfold.

Egypt's leading pyramidologist, Dr. Zahi Hawass, Director of the Giza Necropolis, has been working steadily over the last twenty-five years to uncover the archaeological history of Rostau – the ancient name of Giza. In the late 1980s he announced the discovery of the Valley Temple and Pyramid Town (Egy. Gerget) of Pharaoh Khufu and what may be the remains of a palace belonging to the king nearby. The reason why these important vestiges of the Khufu funerary complex have only just come to light is that they had been buried deep under the modern village of Nazlet el-Simman and the ever expanding Cairo suburbs. Indeed, the somewhat fortuitous discovery only came about when work began on the cutting of a new sewage pipeline and the clearing of a 19th-century canal which runs northwards through the area, some half a kilometre east of the Giza escarpment on top of which the three pyramids were built. There, in the trenches dug by the industrial excavation machinery, Hawass and English Egyptologist Michael Jones were able to record massive mudbrick walls which may have belonged to a royal residence; much more humble mudbrick dwellings of the pyramid construction workforce, crammed full of pottery, cooking pots, grinding stones and bread moulds; and a basalt pavement located at the end of the Great Pyramid causeway which appears to have been the foundation of the temple where the king's body was brought for mummification before being taken up to the tomb. Sadly, this fascinating investigation into the valley elements of the Khufu pyramid complex had to be cut short due to the unpleasant working conditions. Even archaeologists draw the line at excavating knee deep in sewage!

Then, in 1994, Hawass unearthed part of the great stone quay where the funerary boat of King Khufu would have been moored when Pharaoh made the final, glorious journey to his 'magnificent obsession' Akhet Khufu (Horizon of Khufu) – the Great Pyramid.

Now Zahi Hawass' latest discovery is beginning to tell us something about the way in which the craftsmen who devoted their lives to the pyramid were treated by their sovereign and his administration. Rock-cut tombs of these artisans have been found with causeways and false-doors (for the spirit of the deceased) in imitation – on a much smaller scale of course – of the royal tombs themselves. The tomb owners bodies indicate that in life they received a high degree of medical care. One artisan had undergone brain surgery – and had then survived for two years. Another had lived for twelve years after having his leg amputated. Twelve bodies were found with broken limbs, all of which had been set with splints. It is fairly reasonable to assume that many of these medical conditions were the consequences accidents at the building site. The Egyptians had the scars to prove that they were the ones who had built the impressive stone tombs of the pharaohs. But, sadly, an anthropological examination of their remains clearly shows that few lived much beyond thirty-five years of age in the service of their divine lord and master.

The leading American specialist in pyramid construction, Dr. Mark Lehner, has recently provided some interesting statistics dealing with the construction of the Great Pyramid. Through a series of direct, hands-on experiments in construction and using the ancient techniques illustrated on wall-paintings in the tombs, he has been able to show that a 2.5 ton limestone block could have been dragged by just 20 men from the quarry to the foot of the pyramid in less than half an hour. A single dragging team would probably, therefore, have transported at least 10 stones per day to the building site. Using 30 teams or gangs of draggers, an astonishing 300 blocks could then have been available for construction every day throughout the 23-year reign of Pharaoh Khufu. That's a grand total of over 2.5 million stones! Surveyors have calculated that the Great Pyramid consists of approximately 2.3 million blocks – enough to build a wall all the way around France over 10 feet high. So the figures can be made to add up – if we assume that work continued throughout the year. Even so, it is an extraordinary feat we are contemplating here. We can only marvel at the thought of an Egyptian workforce sustaining an effort which required the lifting, positioning and trimming of a huge block of stone every 2 minutes, day-in day-out, for a quarter of a century.

Lehner estimates two shifts working during the daylight hours. Each shift would have consisted of hundreds of quarry workers, 500 draggers, 300 setters or constructors and hundreds of ramp builders. Extraordinarily, a total of just 2000 per shift may have been all the workforce needed to build the Great Pyramid. This is a far cry from the 100,000 slaves reported by Herodotus who visited Egypt 2000 years after the Giza pyramids had risen up on the western horizon of Rostau.

Still, it seems hardly credible that such an effort would have been driven purely by religious zeal and devotion to the divine monarch. Indeed, the Egyptian traditions themselves strongly suggest that the population, at first enthusiastic for the task, were eventually enslaved by Pharaoh's ambition to build the greatest tomb on Earth. So, perhaps the idea of pyramids built under the lash is not so far fetched after all. Thanks to Hawass' work we now know that the craftsmen who supervised and oversaw the construction were well looked after, living in their pyramid town and having quality tombs constructed for themselves. But what about the quarry workers and the stone draggers? Were they also the recipients of Pharaoh's largess? Or were they more likely conscripts from the countryside – ordinary peasant farmers brought in as corvée labour to work on royal building projects? One has to wonder why the third and last of the Giza pyramids ended up being so much smaller than the other two, and why none of the later pyramids come close to the size and quality of the 4th Dynasty pyramids. Perhaps the overwhelming burden of such resource-draining projects was simply too much for the country to bear, both economically and politically. What we do know is that building projects on the scale of the Giza pyramids were never to be attempted again. The lessons had been learnt. Preparations for eternal existence in the hereafter could be rather less demanding in the here and now.
<hr></blockquote>

Reference:WayBack: Nunki Net: WhoBuiltPYramids
Wayback Rohl Article Listing


  
 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Is that article serious? There are a bunch of 'facts' in that article that are really forgeries.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:43 pm 
Areles
If you are going to assert something contentous like that it would serve you to provide specific commentary and a little thing called "evidence" to support your claims.


  
 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:54 am 
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i have no doubt that the Egyptians built the pyramids but, under whose directions? The Egyptian pharoahs were guided by the sages. The sages were educated in the temples and inducted into the mystery systems which are now referred to as "Masonry" etc... So, the question now becomes who originated the Temple worship and the mystery systems that influenced the entire world political, economical, and spiritual structure?
Peace.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:03 am 
One of my favorite books is entitled Catastrophobia by Barbara Hand Clow. Some might say that both the book and the author are kooky, but I enjoy the way she and the references she sites are intellectually stimulating.

In regard to the Egyptians building the Great Pyramid et al, I can see how both "sides" of the argument could be made for and against the Egyptians actually doing the construction.

1. Given that the term Egyptians evokes a civiliation that has been given a "birthdate" of almost 6,000 years ago, then I would have to chime in on the side that states the Egyptians did not build the Great Pyramid.

2. However, since there is archeological evidence that people lived in North Africa as far back as 12,000 bce, and if one wants to identify these people as being Egyptians, then I would have to chime in on the side that the Egyptians built the Great Pyramid but were not the architects (coinciding with Sitchin's claims).

According to the above referenced book, there were at least three (3) cataclysmic events spaced out at about 3,000 year intervals.

1. Twelve or thirteen thousand years ago, there was a worldwide cataclysmic event that apparently annihilated mankind, sending the survivors down into the Earth to await more favorable conditions. One reference Clow cited was Michael Hoffman, Egypt before the Pharoahs: the Prehistoric Foundaton of Egyptian Civilization.

2. Around nine to six thousand years ago, there was another catclysmic event that greatly changed the Mediterranean region and may have influenced the Biblical flood story, although other sources place this event much later during the third cataclysmic event. This is known by Egyptologists as the Blank Period. Mary Settegast suggests that during this time the Nile valley seems almost deserted, but artifacts and ruins found show an apparent "Egyptian" influence. The Sahara was wetter during this time, which suggests to many that people lived far west of the Nile, their ruins now lying under sand.

3. After the so-called last cataclysm, then the "recognized" Egyptian dynastic reign began. Modern Egyptologists claim that this is when people began to develop a high technological civilization, almost blooming overnight. The problem with these Modern Mythmakers is that they cannot or will not answer the question: how did man, presumably emerging from caves, suddenly build a civilization with demonstrated skill in art, science, etc.?

Sitchin makes much about the pyramids (along with all of the "clocks" found around the world) as being associated with Shems and the arrival of the gods. But I believe we should not overlook the other point he made: that the ancients knew that the solar system was cyclic and that catastophes were also cyclic.

If one were to look back only roughly 3,000 years ago, the Earth suffered a cataclysm which is described in some detail in Genesis as well as other writings by people all over the Earth. And, we are nearing the end of another 3,000-year epoch. If I were smart enough, I'd spend my time less worrying about who built these cosmic time pieces and more about how to read and use them.


  
 
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:04 pm 
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Quote: from Wallis on 9:03 pm on Aug. 12, 2005

If one were to look back only roughly 3,000 years ago, the Earth suffered a cataclysm which is described in some detail in Genesis as well as other writings by people all over the Earth. And, we are nearing the end of another 3,000-year epoch. If I were smart enough, I'd spend my time less worrying about who built these cosmic time pieces and more about how to read and use them.


Welcome aboard, Wallis, my friend! Glad to see you!

Unfortunately the claims of a 'global flood as depicted in Genesis is refuted by evidence.

As far back as 7000 BC there are continuous records of Bristlecone pine cones lying on the ground in the Sierra Nevada mountains that have obviously not been disturbed by any sort of "global flood."


Beyond that, there are numerous lakes whose sedimentation records can be traced back to this period and even before, based on counting of annual varves. A "varve" is layers of alternately finer and coarser sedimentary particulate representative of an annual cycle of deposition in a body of still water. One example, Lake Van, which is situated near the sources of the Tigris and Euphrates in southeast Turkey, has a continuous record of annual varves reaching back from the present day to 13,000 BC. Lake Suigetsu's calibrated varve record extends the period of undisturbed sediment deposition back to 36,000 BC.


Given these and other evidences it is reasonable to concluded that these evidence rule out the possibility of a global flood within the past 38,000 years.

Unfortunately, if we push the date for the flood to before 36,000 BC then we must also do such distortions to Genesis that a literal interpretation of the flood story becomes more-than-a-little absurd.

Similarly, this information makes Sitchin's correlation of Nibiru's return with the flood and his interpreted orbital cycle for this celestial body also absurd, not to mention making it far more difficult to correlate the presence of Nibiru (and these Anunnaki) with human events.


  
 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:46 pm 
Tripp,

How about we just limit the "global" to the Mediterranean and just beyond? I may have helped misconstrue a conception, as the referenced book was dealing only with this part of the world.

Thanks.


  
 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:58 am 
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I'm sorry for not spelling out why I thought that article was totally spaced out because I was hoping you, Tripp, or someone else was going to take the time to dissect it. I had stopped reading after it mentioned the quarry markings within the chambers above the King's chanber because they are undoubtally a forgery created by My. Vyse to create for himself some credibility and a legacy.

Since nobody else who's read 'The Stairway to Heaven' and other related material has pointed out the obvious I guess I'll have to. (I've now had to read the whole article of course.)

1. The main problem with the quarry marks is that they incorrectly named the builder of the pyramids. The cartouches contained the same mistakes shown in the book that came out before the updated book. When the updated book came out there was a rush to create another forgery but giving Mr. Vyse's repututaion they should never have been given any credibility. I think that the only reason why others jumped onto the bandwagon is because they refused to beleive that the pyramids were built BEFORE the Egytion civilization.

2. The pyramids were never tombs. The peices of bones that were found in the more recently discovered chambers were another hoax created by Mr. Vyse. The sarcophagas' that were found in the first chambers to be studied were either intended to serve a different function (part of the light and sound emmiting devices) or were brought in by pharaohs of the more recent dynasties. Hell, most of the 'evidence' were carbon dated to either Christian times or within a few centuries before that.

3. The wobble of Earth's tilt known as procession is a subjective subject. Since it wobbles a degree every 72 years it's hard to tell if the alignment of the pyramids was made at 10,000 B.C. or 2,500 B.C.. The difference between the 2 times is the climate of that time. Egypt was A LOT more wetter in 10,000 B.C. than it was in 2,500 B.C. and that would explain the amount of WATER erosion done to the pyramids and sphinx. Recently egyptologists have tried to reason that sand and wind have caused the erosion but if you were to compare them togther you can cleary see that sand does not create the trickling down effect that blowing sand cannot create.

4. The workforce needed to build the pyramids does does not prove WHEN it was created. It only proves that the Anunnaki used humans to build the pyramids. I would love to see them try to use the same calculations to prove how humans could have moved the megalithic stones used to construct the platforms of Baal-bek, Jerusalem, and the Giza pyramids and also the odd angled unhammered stones used in the structures in South America that required NO MORTAR.

5. The last paragraph is the most amusing of them all. First the article stated that the workers were well cared for but then they still insist that it is possible that they were lashed into working. In no way does the 'city' of the workers look like a prision camp. There was nothing keeping the workers from leaving except for their own devotion to appease the gods who created them and provided for them. They understood that without the gods they would have nothing so to pay their respect they enlisted themselves in the building of the structure needed to guide the landing craft of the Anunnaki. Considering the smaller pyramid as being built last is the most amusing part. In fact it was built FIRST as a model to ensure that the 2 larger ones were built exactly as they were intended.

Too many people have their heads buried into the sand. Maybe that's why the Egytptian government is so afraid to allow the excavation of the area below the Sphinx because it would abolish the accepted 'facts'. I think something along the lines of the Ben-ben (the capsule used by Ra/Marduck to land onto Earth) is buried there. In fact according to the inscriptions on the paws of the Sphinx we'll more than likely find at least one of the crafts used by the Anunnaki (more than likely Ra/Marduck or Horus) to travel great distances across the Earth. Judging by the depiction on the paw it looks remarkably like a modern day helicopter.

(Forgive me for any spelling errors. I was in the process of unwinding with the help of alcohol during this ranting session.)

(Edited by Areles at 12:09 am on Aug. 21, 2005)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:55 am 
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Wallis,
How about limiting the primary flooding to the Indian Ocean? I will have to admit a certain amount of skepticism with Noah's flood where he lands on Mt Arrarat afterwards. A tidal wave wouldn't leave water behind for such a long period of time nor would it be so deep. The water had to go somewhere afterwards. One thought I had that might explain such high water would be tidal forces. Could something have caused such a great pull? Of course the water would have moved around the world daily as the globe spun, like high and low tides. Higher ground would still be unaffected. Last speculation, tectonic movement? With so few survivors, there aren't many to talk of great earthquakes. It would explain some of the drowned cities. I'm on pretty shaky ground with the earthquake/tectonic theory, hehe.


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What gets me is that it's not just Mesopotamia that was affected by the Deluge. Even the ancient civilizations of South America have myths including an immense Deluge. Even the geological evidence of the area suggest that it happened circa 11,000 B.C. just like in Mesopotamia. Perhaps the 'tsunami' affected the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean.

I find it hard to beleive that the Deluge was something created by the constant gravitational pull of a nearby planet or moon. Yes, the gravitational pull of either Nibiru or the moon caused the Deluge but there is no indication of the waters rising and lowering and that being the only global killer. I'm sure tidal forces affected the water like it still does today but there had to be a cause for the sudden increase in water.

Flat out, the last ice age came to an abrupt end 13,000 years ago. Not only that but maps were made not too long after that that shows Antartica without the ice that covers it nowadays. Then there is the gradual drying out that started then and is still in effect (global warming isn't around just because of us). Egypt was a tropical paradise 12,000 years ago but is now nearly totally barren in comparison.

Whether we will enter into a new ice age is yet to be determined. Maybe what we have doing with fossil fuels and such is keeping the ice sheet from building up but that should be considered as a good thing. I suggest that a method be devised to transport the ice of Antartica to dryer regions to keep the ice sheet to a bare minimum (and to bring porsperity to regions in poverty). Not only should we be determined to prevent another ice age but we should more importantly keep another Deluge from occuring. (Perhaps the gods are keeping their promise and they are the ones keeping the ice sheet from building up.) If the Anunnaki can prevent their planet's atmosphere from being blown away by the sun using suspended gold particles (the jury is still out on that theory) we can at least prevent similar catastropic disasters on own planet.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:11 pm 
I was intriguied by the concept of water being released from below the surface by earthquakes.

[url[http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/full/32/9/769[/url]


  
 
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<div style="background:black; color:#E6D5BD; border-left: black 5 solid; border-right:black 5 solid">
Quote:
<font color="white">Quote: from Areles on 12:58 am on Aug. 21, 2005
I'm sorry for not spelling out why I thought that article was totally spaced out because I was hoping you, Tripp, or someone else was going to take the time to dissect it. I had stopped reading after it mentioned the quarry markings within the chambers above the King's chanber because they are undoubtally a forgery created by My. Vyse to create for himself some credibility and a legacy.</font>


Areles,

Well, this is one issue related to Sitchin's work which has long given me a very bad taste in my mouth and i did not at all enjoy discussing it as it shows Sitchin to be a deliberate distorter and even a fabricator (yes, that is a very gentle euphemism for what very likely applies here).

In truth, Areles, the issue of the quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid (yes, it is his pyramid and made under his reign for him) has long been established and "undoubtally" so. The quarry marks are and have been established as real and bona fide by a variety of means and, disturbingly, Sitchin's claims and reproductions regarding these quarry marks can be shown to be fabrications. The quarry marks found in the great pyramid could not possibly have been a forgered by Colonel Howard Vyse ... nor anyone else in Vyse's expedition and are confirmed as real and appropriate, even by knowledge acquired only long after Vyse's expedition thereby prohibiting the writings from having been made by Vyse ... or anyone else!

Areles, the conclusions you are espousing are exclusively the domain of those who know nothing of Egyptology and instead choose to embrace "new age" ideologies regarding the pyramid and have spent no time in the pyramids themselves and only slightly more time inquiring about them. The information you're offering as "fact" and 'proven" is actually parrotings of Sitchin and other's false claims repeated as if they were validated, confirmed and resolved when this is not at all the case and actually opposite of the case.


Quote:
<font color="white">Quote: from Areles on 12:58 am on Aug. 21, 2005
1. The main problem with the quarry marks is that they incorrectly named the builder of the pyramids. The cartouches contained the same mistakes shown in the book that came out before the updated book. When the updated book came out there was a rush to create another forgery but giving Mr. Vyse's repututaion they should never have been given any credibility. I think that the only reason why others jumped onto the bandwagon is because they refused to beleive that the pyramids were built BEFORE the Egytion civilization. </font>



Actually the quarry marks named the builder of the pyramid (singular, NOT plural) specificially Khufu's pyramid, by one name at that point entirely unknown to ANYONE at at that time. That name found in the relieving chamber over the King's chamber was one never before seen and entirely unknown at that point in history (See section "Khufus's 'Horus' Name" below).

<b><font size=+2 color=#ffff99>ISSUE: The Cartouche of KHUFU:</font></b>
<font size=+2 color=#ffff99>"KH" vs "RE"</font>


The issue you mention of the cartouche and wrong heiroglyphics in the original publication actually is not at issue at all. The book you vaguely reference, Sir John Gardner <b>Wilkinson's "<i>Materia Hieroglyphica</i>" DID INDEED have an incorrectly represented heiroglyph in its initial publication and this book HAD IN FACT come out in 1837 by the time Vyse entered the Great Pyramid and discovered the quarry marks in the relieving chamber....BUT THIS HAD NO EFFECT because the incorrect representation in the book was not what Vyse found in the pyramid!</b> This incorrect representation of what Vyse found is Sitchin's own doing and no one else's.


<center>Image</center>

In the two cartouches <b>seen ABOVE</b> encircled by 'rope', the name for Khufu can be seen on the left. "Khufu" is <i>properly</i> represented by the symbols of "Sieve, Quail, Viper, Quail" and represents the consonants "Kh-Wu-F-Wu" or Khufu. The cartouche on the right for "Reufu" does not have the "sieve" with horizontal lines as the first symbol and instead has the solar disk represented by a dot or solid disk, which is essentially what Sitchin represents in "Stairway to Heaven" was found in the pyramid by Vyse (but is not what was found by Vyse at all). The problem is that this "Reufu" name does not exist; there was never any such Egyptian Pharoah. However the name "Reufu", with a solid solar disk (not a dot and not a seive) was essentially what was mistakenly published in the first edition of Wilkinson's book "Materia Hieroglyphica" in 1837. What had happened in the first publication of Wilkinson's book was that the horizontal lines in the disk were made so close together that the symbol appeared as a solid disk when printed; this was a minor error in printing but a grave error in representation and confused many who did not know the correct symbol and, indeed, would have led to an inccorect representation. <b> Yet this incorrect figure is not what Vyse found in the pyramid.</b>

<center>Image
Sitchin's representation of Vyse's drawing in "Stairway to Heaven"</center>

Above is Sitchin's representation of the cartouche found in the relieving chamber by Vyse presented by SItchin in his book "Stairway to Heaven". The figure on the left side is implied by Sitchin to be what Vyse found in the pyramid chamber and the "enlargment" on the right side "a" is Sitchin's own creation (fabrication). While Sitchin makes no direct mention of where he got the sketch on the left, Sitchin does have Perrings "The Pyramids of Gizeh" (published 1839, two years after Vyse's discovery) listed in his bibliography and it is the likely source of the sketch. (Sitchen has never been in the relieving chamber himself). Looking at the drawing on the left from "Stairway to Heaven" one can clearly see detail inside the disk indicating that it it is certainly not a solid disk (as mistakenly published by Wilkinson) and it does not appear to be a mere dot.

Fortunately we do have other timely references (publications) produced shortly after Vyse's 1837 discovery which help nail down the issue. As mentioned, Perring published "<i>The Pyramids of Gizeh</i>" in 1839. Also Vyse, Sitchin's aleged forger, published "<i>Operations carried out on the great Pyramid of Giza in 1837</i>" published in 1842, <b>Below</b> you can see representations of the depictions of the cartouche found in the relieving chamber made in both of these publications:

<center>Image
"Khufu" by <b>PERRING</b> in 1839</center>

<center>Image
"Khufu" by <b>VYSE</b> in 1842</center>

As you can see, each sketch by both Perring and Vyse show that the inside of the disk has horizontal lines. Both pictures unmistakably show a "Kh" and not a "Re". And while we can see that Sitchin's small picture on the left very likely comes from Vyse's report, we can also see that his "enlargement" on the right above "a" is no enlargement at all, but a new picture, probably drawn by Sitchin himself.

<img src="http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/pyramide/grafik/VyseJournal.gif" align="right" border="50">As further evidence, Colonel Vyse's field notes are now on display in the British Museum. In photocopy, at right, dated May 27 1837, we find Vyse's first dealings with the "Khufu cartouche". The upper left corner shows the disk as a solid (hollow) 'solar disk', as Vyse expected to find it, given he was carrying Wilkinson's improperly reproduced sketch from "<i>Materia Hieroglyphica</i>". Vyse even notes down the disk with a dot in it as an additional representation of the solar disk. However Vyse is puzzled because nothing he has shows the circle with the three lines which he actually found in the relieving chamber. Beyond doubt, as Sitchin indicated, Vyse was EXPECTING to find a solar disk as per Wilkinson's misrepresentation. Beyond doubt Vyse was no great Egyptologist. Beyond doubt, Vyse had Wilkinson's book with him. However Vyse's own notes show him to be NO forger at all and his expectation of finding the cartouche of Khufu to validate the builder of the Great Pyramid was not what Vyse believed he found on that day. What Vyse expected to find on that day was validation that the great pyramid was built by a king called "Cheops" ("Khufu") as reported by the Greek historian, Herodotus, written after a visit to Egypt around 470 BC AND as indicated by a 3rd centery BC Egyptian high priest, Manetho, indicating that it was built by "Suphis" (also "Khufu")... but to Vyse's own mind, this was not what he found -- Vyse had no idea what he found but it sure was not the the representation of "Khufu" as indicated by Wilkinson. Beyond doubt Vyse had no celebration that day and he did not imagine he had established the Pharoah's name for whom this wonder was built.


<b>TO RECAP: there is no other reference of there being a solid or dotted "solar disk" in any litereature except for Sitchin's own claim. The improperly reproduced 'seive' in Wilkinson's first publication of "Materia Hieroglyphica" is entirely a moot point and has no bearing on the discussion because it had no effect on Vyse's discovery: Vyse found a 'seive' represented in the Pyramid's relieving chamber and not a 'solar disk" and, given this the quarry marks found by Vyse did not "incorrectly name the builder of the pyramid" but rather CORRECTLY named the building of the great pyramid despite the 'misdirection' provided by Wilkinson's incorrect symbol. These evidences go far in showing both that Sitchin is, in fact, the actual 'forger" here and also in proving the legitimacy of Vyse's find.... but this is by NO MEANS the only proof that Vyse's find is legit and that Khufu is the builder and intended occupant of the Great Pyramid:</b>

<hr style="color:#ffff99" width=60%>
<b><font size=+2 color=#ffff99>KHUFU'S 'HORUS' NAME</font></b>

There were a wide variety of markings on the stones found in the Great Pyramid, not just the name "Khufu", and these ranged from a variety of writings to quarry marks originating at the quarry itself and even "lay lines" used for horizontal alignment of blocks. Tn fact the quarry marks themselves seem to designate work teams which were assigned to one of the four sides of the pyramid. THe point here is that the contested "Khufu" found by Vyse is not by any means the only marking found that is telling. In fact there was one other marking found which was even more telling than the then known name "Khufu" and this marking is even more concrete proof that the pyramid was made by Khufu and it could not possibly have been forged because, at the time of Vyse's discovery, this writing was of entirely unknown reference.

Egyptian Pharoahs had much more than one name (say, beyond "Khufu") and, in fact, the fully expanded title of Pharoahs cinsisted of 5 names along with a wide array of titles or 'epithets' referencing that Pharoah. Typically the most important names (and most telling) were the "birth" name and "throne" name and these two were what were displayed inside the cartouch (the 'rope' circle) and used in official capacities such as Kings lists and decrees. The first pharoah to use a cartouche around his birth name and throne name was Neferirkare, the third pharoah in the 5th Dynasty, which doesn't help us much since Khufu long preceeded the 5th dynasty and was early in the 4th Dynasty.

<center>Image
The Horus name of Khufu: "MDDW"</center>

Prior to the Neferirkare in the 5th Dynasy a pharoah only had his birth name within a cartouche and outside the cartouch he had his <b>Horus Name</b> to serve as a 'throne nane'. As the Horus name was not written in Kings lists this Horus name was unknown and unrecognized in Vyse's time. Even the throne name, which for Khufu was "Mddw", meaning something like "he who gives" was not entirely unknown in meaning in the 1840's, not even by Birch, whom Sitchin's used (and abused) as a common reference in his books. In fact Birch referenced Khufu's Horus name as "some unknown titulary". However a mere titularly reference would only be a vague reference to Khufu whereas a Horus name, such as Khufu's "mddw", is a direct and specific reference to a pharoah.

<img src="http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/pyramide/grafik/Hcheops.GIF" align="right" border="10">Sitchin himself tries to dismiss the appearance of this Horus name in Vyse's documentations by stating that this mediocre Egyptologist and forger (Vyse) somehow unwittingly found Khufu's Horace name in the surrounding tombs and copied it to the relieving chamber. Unfortunately for Sitchin no such existence of Khufu's Horace name has ever been found in the surrounding tombs.

<b>The existence of Khufu's Horace name in the quarry marks within the relieving chamber of the Great Pyramid is further profound PROOF POSITIVE of the originator of the Great Pyramid and that Vyse did not and could not have engaged in any sort of forgery!</b>

<hr style="color:#ffff99" width=60%>
<b><font size=+2 color=#ffff99>OTHER EVIDENCES:</font></b>
There are other proofs of the validity of the quarry marks and that these were not forgeries:
<UL type=square><li><b>LAY LINES: </b> There are 6 alignment lines that appear inside the GP chambers with 3 of these disappearing behind floor blocks. These alignment lines traverse over the top of quarry marks and behind floor blocks, showing quite clearly that the alignment lines were added AFTER the quarry marks (validating the quarry marks) and BEFORE the floor blocks were put in place, thereby establishing a construction order as well.
<center><font color="white"><b>QUARRY MARK -> Lay Lines -> FLOOR</b></font></center>


<li><b>QUARRY MARKS UNDER BLOCKS: </b> Perring and others have documented that quarry marks disappear into the cracks between rocks, even the half exposed cartouche of "Khufu", thereby making it an impossibility that any could have forged these markings with more recent application of Ochre paint. In total eleven (11) markings disappear into the cracks of blocks and these are not only cartouches but also less interesting, more mundane markings.
</ul>

Graham Hancock, author and vocal proponent of "Ancient Civilizations" originally supported Sitchin in his own book "Fingerprings of the Gods" in the belief that Vyse forged the "Khufu" cartouche in the relieving chamber. However upon visiting the great pyramid and viewing the guarry marks at his leisure, Hancock wrote the following words:<blockquote><i>"There were no restrictions on where I looked and I had ample time to examine the hieroglyphs closely, under powerful lights. Cracks in some of the joints reveal hieroglyphs set far back into the masonry. No 'forger' could possibly have reached in there after the blocks had been set in place - blocks, I should add, that weigh tens of tons each and that are immovably interlinked with one another. The only reasonable conclusion is the one which orthodox Egyptologists have already long held - namely that the hieroglyphs are genuine Old Kingdom graffiti and that they were daubed on the blocks before construction began." </i></blockquote> In later updated editions of his book "Fingerprints of the Gods" and in subsequent "Keeper of Genesis" (aka "Message of the Sphinx") Hancock removed all mention of Vyse being a forger and abandoned his support of Sitchin in his belief that the pyramids were much older than believed by Egyptologists on the basis of the quarry marks.

<font color="white"><b>It seems it was Sitchin, and not Vyse, who was so aggressively persuing his pet theory that he wanted to incorporate the only surviving "Seven Wonders" of the ancient world (the great pyramid) and he was willing to malign an honest man and fabricate evidences in the process.</b></font>

<hr style="color:#ffff99" width=60%>
Areles, I fully anticipate you to come back with further evidence from Sitchin regarding the great pyramid. Suffice to say that Sitchin's misrepresentations of evidences in this matter does not end with what I have presented here and he has repeatedly misrepsented even Birch.

As a final comment, I want to say that I am really trying not to abuse you personally here, Areles, and I do value your input here on these forums, but you need to provide more evidence for your claims and beliefs than mere statement that something is "proven". As a result of nonexestent argument and evidence on your part, I am not even going to address your unsupported statements about the pyramid workers and the fact that the smallest pyramid was built first, not last, as a model to ensure the other two were built as intended<a href="http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/pyramide/pyr05_e.php">.</a>

</div>

(Edited by Tripp at 1:33 pm on Aug. 25, 2005)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:02 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:52 am
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just posting my 2 cents in here:

A stone stele that was ingraved on a rock near Elephantine to the north of Aswan and discovered by Wilbour in 1889, speaks of the construction of pyramids. since then this stele, called the "Famine Stele" has been deciphered by many egyptologists with different interpretations as usual.

this stele references three of the most important figures of egyptian civilization: the Pharaoh Zoser, the arquitect Imhotep and the god of creation Khnum.

according to the stele, to rebuild the monuments of the gods, Zoser was given a list of instructions by Khnum in a dream . the pharaoh Zoser is claimed to have built the first pyramid, the step pyramid, around 2750 BC. Imhotep was its chief arquitect.

"I found the god standing...
he spoke to me: "I am Khnum, your creator, My arms are around you, to steady your body, to safeguard your limbs. I bestow on you rare ores upon rare ores... since creation nobody ever processed them for building the temples of the gods or rebuilding the ruined temples..."

the interesting thing is that the name of Khnum is precisely the name that appears in the king's chamber in the Giza pyramid. the god Khnum is the god of creation in egyptian mythology, the god who fashioned manking from clay. anyone who has read Sitchin and the sumerian texts will understand the importance of this text.

Mark Lehner carbon dating gave a 3000+ bc years and the most recent carbon dating project posted a time stamp of 200/400+ years over the assumed Khufu's date. making it a tad difficult for Khufu to have built the pyramids when in fact he wasnt even born yet.

the red ochre symbols inside the pyramid on the top five compartiments of the Kings chamber are interpreted as the evidence for assigning the building of the great pyramids to Kheops. but infact the symbols Knum-Kufu when read litteraly mean "Knum protects". Knum beeing the (ram headed) creator god of the Universe in egyptian mythology. also the main divinity in Kehops city of birth. Kehops probably incorporated the title of Kufu on his birth and the symbol of his home city Knum. the Nebti name of Kehops would be thus Knum-Kufu. this would pose a significant problem since his name would now be identical to the ancient and venerated formula of the creator god. Kufu had thus to take the epithet of Knum from his Nebti name. this explains why he is frequently cited as only Kufu or Kehops. those discreet marks in the pyramid could very well have been liturgical marks in homage of the creator god.

this god figure, Knum-Kufu shares some interesting similarities with the creator god of Sumeria, since both of them are said to have created mankind from the clay/mud of the Earth.

Khnum was a creator god, Enki was a creator god. Khnum is associated with flowing water, Enki is associated with flowing water. Khnum gave plans to the Egyptian King to build temples for him, Enki gave plans to a Sumerian King to build a ziggurat for him. Khnum molded man on a potter's wheel, Enki created man from clay/mud.


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