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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:31 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:34 am
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<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/mars_tubes.jpg" WIDTH="745" HEIGHT="1207">

<b>The Mars "Tubes":
<u> A Trick of 'Light & Shadow'</u>?</b>

Reference Image: <a href="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tube_diagram.jpg" target="_blank"> [url=http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tube_diagram.jpg</a>

Commentary]http://users.snip.net/~marsun....mentary[/url] and initial responses to these "Tubes" cover a wide range of impressions. Almost invariably persons initial viewing of these "Tube" shapes results in a response of them having some biological form, as if from some enormous worm. This response is echoed by Novelist and British Knight Sir Arthur C. Clarke's own statement, "<i> I'm still waiting for an explanation of that extraordinary glass worm on ... [Mars].. Wh..It's one of the most incredible images that's ever come from space and there have been no [official] comments on it whatsoever!</i>"

Although these "Tubes" have long been in the public eye, NASA itself went a long while without making any sort of commentary on these "Tube" features, with its only preliminary response being vague and not specifically directed:

<blockquote><i>"Seeing Mars up close through the narrow angle camera has been a humbling experience. We often find surfaces for which there are no obvious analogs on Earth, like certain ridges that look like dunes. Our terrestrial geologic experience seems, at times, to fail us," Edgett said. "Perhaps it is because water is the dominant force of erosion on Earth, even in the driest desert regions. But on Mars that force of change may have been something else, like wind. The ridges seen in places like the Valles Marineris floors are strange. They aren't dunes because they occur too close together; their crests are too sharp, their slopes too symmetrical. They often appear to be a specific layer of material that has undergone erosion -- we just wish we knew what processes are involved that cause this kind of erosion."</i></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2000/mgsarchive.html" target="_blank">JPL, Media Relations Office
May 22, 2000</a>

Even in this preliminary, early response NASA recognizes that these dune "ridges" (which I refer to as the "arches" of the tubes) cannot be dunes because they occur too close together with crests entirely too sharp and slopes too symmetrical to be Aeolian, wind driven dune forms.

NASA went a long while without any sort of official, directed response and then finally it came forth in an underhanded manner: the release of correspondence between two persons that did not come forth via official channels. In this response, NASA is going WELL out of their way to make sure these tubular features are dismissed and not a public focus. NASA officials, shown in these emails at below link, try to claim that the viewing of these features as convex TUBES is a "trick of the light" and interpretation of shadow and, NASA CLAIMS, that these tube features are actually concave valleys and that the "arches/ridges" are actually wind driven dunes.

Direct quote there from: "<i>Realize one critical fact--these are not "tubes"...the positive relief is an <b>ILLUSION</b>--the area is crossed by concave valleys. The transverse dune trains are emplaced on the valley floors--this is not new, either or Mars or the Earth.</i>"

The author above, Dr Pieri, has offered NO evidence of his claim that identical features to what is on Mars can be found on earth -- and I submit to all that he does not do so because there are none.

<b><u>These Cannot Be DUNES</u>!</b>

The "Tubes" on Mars cannot be natural Aeolian Dune forms for MANY reasons among these are:

<b>1 ) </b>
The "Ridges" in the tubes which I refer to as "arches" and NASA has called "dunes" cannot be dunes because they proceed up the three arms of the rift/valley radiating from a center. These "dunes" are equally defined in each arm and would THEREFORE imply the wind is consistent in each direction. This is not likely nor even possible. The ONLY such Aeolian dunes ON MARS occur, in fact in narrow valleys where the valley mouth has funneled the winds and increased their speeds through the valley canyon. This is true because the atmosphere on Mars is only 1% of that of earth.. and gravity is also less, 1/3.. so that sands do not percolate, or cause other grains to bounce and become airborne as readily (having less mass and the wind speed cannot sustain what mass they do have). The end result is that is that even gale force winds on Mars are only felt as mild breezes.

In point of fact, these Tubes are not anywhere, in any of the imagery, on the typical surface topography but are generally shielded from winds.. even subsurface, underground at times with only portions of their length exposed.

These "arches" cannot be mere dunes also because their albedo, or white light reflectance particular in black & white imagery, is wholly DIFFERENT than that of *ANY* of the surrounding topography. Were these grains of wind blown sand, they would have to be of similar constituent to the local topography, however it is quite clear by their albedo that they DO NOT RESEMBLE ANY OF THE LOCAL TOPOGRAPHY--- AT ALL!

Here is a color image of a "Dune train" on mars which shows the tight valleys constraining the dune fringes to make something mildly resembling the "Tube" arches.. yet so far from what the tubes are, themselves, that I think you would agree that no person could confuse the "Tube" structures with "Dune trains" traveling up a narrow valley.. even given NASA's <b>ILLUSIONARY</b> lighting.

Compare the top color image showing Aeolian dune "trains" constrained by valley walls, what NASA would have you believe these "tubes" are, with the bottom image of the "Tubes", below:

<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/dune_vs_tube.jpg" WIDTH="316" HEIGHT="361">

Mars Dune Source: <A HREF="http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/june2000/gorgonum/gorgonum2_c100.jpg">http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/june2000/gorgonum/gorgonum2_c100.jpg</A>

In comparing these images recall that NASA itself has indicated that these "arches" cannot be dunes because they are "too close together, and the 'dune' shape is too sharp and symmetrical." Also recognize that the actual dunes themselves (in color image, above) have their margins constrained by the valley walls , without which these dune margins would normally be diffuse and irregular and would not appear to follow such a regular pattern. The tubes themselves have no such topographic constraints and even do appear to hang in the air in the central portion of the tri-radiate valley.

<b>2)</b>
NASA argues that tubes are concave valleys.. and not tubular, convex forms. It is not possible that these are concave valleys for so many reasons, among them lighting and shadow evident throughout the main anomaly image, M04-00291(1st image at top) as well as other images showing the same convex form.

For starters, the greatest CLEAR evidence of lighting direction and shadow in the image comes from the raised lip of a large, prominent "impact crater" in the image north-east of the tube area , along the image's right edge. The tight line of this shadow on the "crater's" western inside rim shows the sun to be slightly to the west but more or less high in the sky and not at a low angle.

<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/vent_raised.jpg" WIDTH="317" HEIGHT="154">

This argument will not even broach the overwhelming evidence that this and other "impact craters" in the proximity of the Tube feature are not impact craters at all, but are actually "vents" connected to the subsurface tube structures and can be clearly seen to be vitreous and hollow and in some cases the interconnection between vent and tube is unobstructed by stratigraphic cover and interconnection can be readily delineated.

<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/stained_vent.jpg" WIDTH="300" HEIGHT="162" BORDER="1"> <IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/vent_tube_adj.jpg" WIDTH="300" HEIGHT="162" BORDER="1">

<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/typical_crater.jpg" WIDTH="144" HEIGHT="153"> <IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/ramped_crater.jpg" WIDTH="144" HEIGHT="153">

<b>Left</b>, Typical Impact Crater ------- <b>Right</b>, "Vent" with void on approach side of subsurface "Tube"

The reflectance on the tubes AGREES with this lighting as does the high vitreous (glassy) sheen seen on the oval area I refer to as the "node"(also seen in top, initial image). Additionally, the tubes themselves DO cast a shadow in agreement with this same lighting indicator while concave valleys would, in fact, cast no shadow.

Furthermore, the vitreous, glassy albedo of these tubes, which NASA would have us believe to be "valleys" indicates that they themselves are *NOT* at all similar to the surrounding topography. Logically, if these were indeed valleys with wind driven grain transport occurring up their length, they would likely contain such grains throughout their length, even grains cascading down INTO them from above, and would not be blasted to a shiny reflective sheen by any force.

<IMG src="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/node_shine.jpg" WIDTH="189" HEIGHT="150">

Furthermore, the vitreous, glassy albedo of these tubes, what NASA would have you believe to be "valleys" indicates that they themselves are *NOT* at all similar to the surrounding topography. Logically, if these were indeed valleys with wind driven grain transport occurring up their length, they would likely contain such grains throughout their length, even grains cascading down INTO them from above, and would not likely be blasted to a shiny reflective sheen by any force.

ALSO these tubes can readily be seen to separate from the topography itself and *PLUNGE* vertically downward into the center of the tri-radiate valley hanging in mid air! NO concave "valley" would be able to do such a thing as it is presumed that these "valleys" are voids in the topography and not concave forms separate unto themselves from that topography -- and were such a feature to be concave and separate from topography it would violate the very precept that these are "normal" features as NASA claims.

<IMG src="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/tube_plunge.jpg" WIDTH="173" HEIGHT="174">

<b><u>CONCLUSION: One Final Irrefutable Piece of Logic</b></u>

NASA's claim that this "Tube" feature evident in this image is actually a "convex" valley with transerverse dune trains traversing its length is unrealistic and can be shown to be either deliberate dishonesty or incompetence, after validation of not just ONE image, but numerous images. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous (8 to 12) images, showing these "tubes", all of which indicate a convex form, not concave valleys. Each of these images were taken of different locations, at different times of day with different lighting conditions. In all honesty, in the course of my Geology career I myself have been confronted on several occasions with image lighting conditions and insufficient image detail where my mind "forced" me to view the topography in an inverted form. On one such occasion I had to walk away from an image for several hours and then only approach that image with the image turned to a new angle of view on my approach, thereby freeing my mind's own "prejudice". "Tricks of light" do occur, however they are a rarity and will not be continued over different images of different locations with different lighting conditions.

These numerous images show the tubes to be, in fact, complex CONVEX forms.. and NASA's claim of one image being an "ILLUSION" of light and shadow becomes hard to swallow given the unlikely chance that such an illusion would be repeated in these numerous images. This leaves us with only the conclusion that NASA itself is either incompetent in its analyses or engaging in deliberate subterfuge -- its own "trickery" to deliberately draw our focus away from these Tubular features and give us a superficial yet untenable explanation that what we *SEE* is not what actually exists. Why would NASA do such a thing? These reasons are clearly outlined in the April 18th, 1961 "Brookings Report" commissioned by NASA and submitted to Congress with the official title "Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs" and having large portions specifically referencing "implications of the discovery of extraterrestrial life."



<B><U>Further References </U></B>
My own web page, <a href="http://www.geocities.com/marsunearthed/" target="_blank">"Mars UnEarthed"</a>, enumerates some 10 reasons why these "Tubes" must be artificial and cannot be a natural form as well as offering a purpose for this tube feature.
<A href="http://www.geocities.com/marsunearthed/tubes/mars_tubes.html" TARGET="_blank">Mars Tubes: Why They Are An Artificial Feature</A>

<B>Presentation of NASAS's claims of "<i>Trick of Light & Shadow</i>"</B> can be found here (appprox. 1/3 of the way down the presentation) <A HREF="http://www.enterprisemission.com/empire.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.enterprisemission.com/empire.htm</A>

Further refutation of these being "Dunes": <A href="http://www.metaresearch.org/home/Viewpoint/archive/010313GlassyTubes/Meta-in-News010313.asp" target="_blank">http://www.metaresearch.org/home/Viewpoint/Meta-in-News.asp</A>


Tripp McCann
Geologist
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/marsunearthed/" target="_blank">"Mars UnEarthed"</a>



(Edited by Tripp at 4:44 pm on April 6, 2002)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:51 pm 
<u><b>NASA's Claim That The "Tubes" Are a "Trick of Light & Shadow"</b></u>

NASA's prelimanary response to the "Tubes" came as a released statement from JPL's Media Relations Office and is vague and does not reference the Tube feature directly. However this early response by NASA does recognize that these dune "ridges" (which I refer to as the "arches") cannot be dunes because they occur too close together with crests entirely too sharp and slopes too symmetrical to be Aeolian, wind driven dune forms. The more complete statement by JPL's Media Relations Office is seen below:


<blockquote><i>"Seeing Mars up close through the narrow angle camera has been a humbling experience. We often find surfaces for which there are no obvious analogs on Earth, like certain ridges that look like dunes. Our terrestrial geologic experience seems, at times, to fail us," Edgett said. "Perhaps it is because water is the dominant force of erosion on Earth, even in the driest desert regions. But on Mars that force of change may have been something else, like wind. The ridges seen in places like the Valles Marineris floors are strange. They aren't dunes because they occur too close together; their crests are too sharp, their slopes too symmetrical. They often appear to be a specific layer of material that has undergone erosion -- we just wish we knew what processes are involved that cause this kind of erosion."</i></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2000/mgsarchive.html" target="_blank">JPL, Media Relations Office
May 22, 2000</a>

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<b><u>NASAS's Claim of "Trick of Light & Shadow</u>"</b>

<b>NASA went a long while without any sort of official, directed response to these evident "Tubes" and then finally a response came forth in an underhanded manner: the release of e-mail correspondence between two persons that did not come as an official NASA released statement and did not allow any sort of directed questioning of what can be shown to be severely flawed assertions. In these responses, NASA is going WELL out of its way to make sure these tubular features are dismissed and not in public focus. Below are the e-mails exchanged between Dr. Bernard Haisch and Dr. David C. Pieri. </b>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hal Puthoff asked the following. What do you know about this image?

Nothing--before I looked at it on the web. Then I had the biggest technical laugh that I've had in weeks--without being too snotty. The quote from Arthur Clarke was priceless--boy did he ever get skunked!!

Here's what's going on, to me anyway: First take a look at the synoptic overview image and convince yourself from the lighting of the impact crater that the illumination is coming generally from the left. So what you're looking at is actually a valley, not a "...glass worm..." The bright striations across the feature are actually a series of transverse dunes (I suppose they also qualify as sief dunes) running along the bottom of the valley, more or less perpendicular to its axis. It is interesting that they are so bright, but that could be the effect of both an intrinsically high albedo from a source region different than the valley floor layer, OR just a phase angle effect from a sun facing slope directed more or less toward the camera. Note that a lot of other terrain irregularities from the upper plateau surface also exhibit a bright backscattering effect. This kind of dune train aligned along a valley axis has been seen before (I think even from Viking data) but definitely has been seen before in MGS data. Very interesting, but more from the point of view of people who worry about eolian transport and markings on Mars as indicators of paleo wind regimes...when you have dunes collecting like this, it means that the underlying surface has been fairly swept clean of loose material and that the interdune areas are sand or dust free...with the material piling up in dunes due to interactions between the terrain and the atmospheric boundary layer...the more-or-less constant spacing is an aerodynamic resonance effect (kind of like hydrodynamic standing waves) and is common in terrestrial deserts. Nevertheless, a very interesting and evocative pictures...but not really any more than that. I just love Arthur's comment!!! :-)

Dr. Bernard Haisch

California Institute for Physics & Astrophysics
366 Cambridge Ave. Palo Alto, CA 94306
Director, California Institute for Physics & Astrophysic(CIPA)
Scientific Editor, The Astrophysical Journal
phone: 650-327-6284 ext. 205,
fax: 650-327-6294


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3-10-01

Subject: More handwaving?
Date: 3-9-01
From: Dave Pieri
To: rcollins

Dear Robert

This is a professional interpretation based on having labored over literally thousands of Viking Mars Orbiter Images, hundreds of Mars Observer images, many, many, many Landsat, ASTER, and airphotos of the earth, having studied aeolian and fluvial geomorphology at the graduate level at two universities, and well over 20 years of aerial and orbital photointerpretation and optical and radar remote sensing here at JPL/Caltech--and years of field experience in a range of climatic zones from desert to arctic. Also, the subject of my Ph.D. thesis was (the first) systematic global study of martian valley networks, in which I looked at thousands of features, such as the one in the MGS image, over a period of years.

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/

Realize one critical fact--these are not "tubes"...the positive relief is an ILLUSION--the area is crossed by concave valleys. The transverse dune trains are emplaced on the valley floors--this is not new, either or Mars or the Earth. It even occurred at very small scale in the Viking Lander 1 site in Chryse Planitia...not all that far away from where this MGS picture was taken.

Look carefully at how the craters in the larger reference image are lit. Then look at the valley wall shadows. Seeing inverted relief is an easy mistake to make, even by an experienced photointerpreter--at first glance. That's why it's always important to check one's first impression against obvious features in the landscape to get oriented properly.

Also, the picture on the "Enterprise" web site is hopeless.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/arthur.jpg

Way overstretched, saturated, and doesn't show other relevant parts of the scene. I downloaded the original data at full resolution from Mike Malin's web site in La Jolla, then used a square-root stretch to even out the contrast. It's clear that these crescentic dune-lets populate the landscape--and occur in all the low troughs or valleys throughout the image (take a look at the subscene attachment). They are a variety of sief and nearly barchan dunes--dead ringer analogs to those in terrestrial deserts. Turn the image 180 degrees (vs. the "Enterprise" picture) so that valleys look like valleys and craters look like craters, not bumps. The 3D striated "glass worm" illusion vanishes, and we're left with a fairly mundane image, exciting only to those of us who have studied the morphology of the valley networks on Mars.

Dunes follow aerodynamic principles--therefore they DO often line up in really precise, repetitive ways related to aero/hydrodynamic streamlines and standing wave resonances.

David C. Pieri, Ph.D.

Earth and Space Sciences Division
Mail Stop 183-501
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
FAX: 818-354-0966
VOICE: 818-354-6299
dave@lithos.jpl.nasa.gov
dave@aster2.jpl.nasa.gov

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
<b>SOURCE:</b> <a href="http://www.enterprisemission.com/empire.htm" Target="_blank">Enterprise Mission: "The Empire Strikes Back" </a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/marsunearthed/tubes/mars_tubes.html" target="_blank" border="none"><IMG src="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/marsu_wet2.gif" WIDTH="563" HEIGHT="208" align="center"></a>


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:37 am 
<b><u> The Tube "Vents"</b></u>
<b> Surface Repesentations Of Subsurface Mars Tubes</b>


<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/stained_vent.jpg" WIDTH="300" HEIGHT="162" BORDER="1">

In the above image of M02-1270, LIGHT can be clearly seen to emmanating from the tube itself and shining on the slope of the vent, this slope inclined toward the tube powerfully indicative of an interconnection! To indicate this is in ANY WAY an impact crater is an irresponsible and ignorant assertion!

Images showing 'vents' associated with these tubes can be regularly found and often times light can be seen to come from within the tube source.

<IMG SRC="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/ramped_crater.jpg" WIDTH="144" HEIGHT="153">

Additionaly the subsurface Tube paths can often be clearly traced through aberrations in the topographic slope. ie. rises in topography and/or collapse in the topography, thereby delineating a path FROM the visible tube structure TO the evident vent on the surface. Invariably these vents show voids on the side of the approaching tubes and sloped bottoms inclined directly in the direction of approach of this subsurface tube, often with a void and sometimes clearly visible interconnection evident, as in the above two images.
Additionaly, the subsurface Tube paths can often be clearly traced through aberations in the topographic slope. ie. rises in topography and/or collapse in the topography, thereby delineating a path FROM the visible tube structure TO the evident vent on the surface. Invariably these vents show voids on the side of the approaching subsurface tubes and alse the vents have sloped bottoms inclined directly toward the approaching subsurface tube, often with a void and explicit interconnection evident, as in the abovebimages.

The Below inverted image of MO4-00291 clearly shows the topographic variations and pathways of the subsurface tubes to the surface vent structures. I don't think anyone can reasonably state that these vents are "impact craters" (as NASA implies) nor can they deny clearly apparent associated of these vents with the Tube structures themselves -- given the overwhelming image detail.

<img src="http://users.snip.net/~marsunearthed/tubes/tube_paths.jpg">


  
 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:44 am 
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Excellent post, Tripp. ;)
Thanks, Russ


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:10 pm
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Good info and research, Tripp. I just wanted you to know "I was here" and will continue to check in from time to time. I've read here before but had trouble registering. Tonight I made it!

Brew


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:55 pm 
Hey Brew!

Thanks! Good to see ya and glad you made it "in".

Perhaps there are other threads here you my find interesting as well.


  
 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:02 pm 

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I stare in amazement...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:46 pm 
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When I saw the picture on this website, I thought of this thread. This is right up your alley Tripp. Any comments? Any updates?

On Mars Things Only Get More Weird


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